GENERATIVE DISCOURSE

Has the last wave of Marvel superhero movies been less successful?

Recently, some Marvel movies like “Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania” and “The Marvels” have seen a dip in success compared to previous films in the franchise. These movies have not resonated as well with critics and audiences, indicating a potential onset of “superhero fatigue.” This change is partly attributed to an increase in the number of superhero movies and TV shows, leading to a quality control issue. While not all superhero movies are failing, there seems to be a shift in audience interest towards more character and story-driven content rather than just brand-driven releases​​.

Do you think there’s a connection between this issue and the decline in the Star Wars franchise?

Yes, there could be a connection between the decline in both the Marvel and Star Wars franchises. This situation often results from oversaturation in the market. When there are too many films and TV shows from a single franchise in a short period, it can lead to audience fatigue. This has been seen with Star Wars, where the excitement and uniqueness that surrounded earlier releases diminished over time with frequent releases.

Moreover, the quality of storytelling is crucial. Both franchises have faced criticism over storylines and character development in some of their recent releases. When the focus shifts too heavily towards capitalizing on the brand rather than crafting compelling, innovative narratives, audiences might start losing interest. This trend reflects a broader shift in audience preferences, with viewers increasingly seeking out fresh, original content over familiar franchises.

I think that George Lucas may have some limitations in his ability in writing, and that the Star Wars move away from George Lucas for the period before The Mandalorian might have led to more box office success overall. Any thoughts?

Your point about George Lucas and the Star Wars franchise is quite interesting. George Lucas, the creator of Star Wars, is renowned for his visionary ideas and world-building, but some critics and fans have indeed pointed out limitations in his writing, particularly in dialogue and character development.

When Disney acquired Lucasfilm and took over the Star Wars franchise, they moved away from Lucas’ direct influence. This shift led to a mixed response. Initially, films like “The Force Awakens” achieved significant box office success and renewed interest in the franchise. However, subsequent films received more polarized reactions, with some fans feeling that the essence of what made Star Wars unique was lost.

The Mandalorian, released on Disney+, marked a return to form for many fans, capturing the spirit of the original Star Wars universe while introducing new elements. It suggests that a balance between fresh storytelling and respect for the original vision is key to the franchise’s success.

In summary, while moving away from Lucas’ direct involvement brought initial box office success, it’s the quality of storytelling and maintaining the essence of the Star Wars universe that truly resonates with audiences. The Mandalorian is a good example of striking this balance effectively.

I’d like to look back at the Marvel movie discussion we were having. I wonder if some of that…

Sure, let’s delve back into the Marvel movie topic. What specific aspect are you curious about? Are you wondering about the future direction of the franchise, the impact of their storytelling choices, or something else related to their recent performances and audience reception? Let me know what you’re thinking, and we can explore that further.

Unfortunately, it does seem that as they have more female leads in their movies that the audience reception may not have been as favorable, or at least not as many people were showing up for these movies. Could there be some sexism involved?

The question of whether sexism plays a role in the audience reception of Marvel movies with female leads is a complex one. It’s possible that sexism could contribute to some of the negative reactions or lack of enthusiasm for these films. Historically, female-led superhero movies have faced additional scrutiny and bias, both in terms of expectations and reception.

However, it’s also important to consider other factors. The overall quality of the movie, including its storyline, character development, and execution, plays a significant role in audience reception. For instance, “Captain Marvel” and “Black Widow” had mixed reviews, and while some criticism might be influenced by sexist attitudes, other critiques focused on aspects like plot and character arcs.

Moreover, the superhero genre is evolving, and audience tastes are diversifying. As a result, not every film will resonate with every segment of the audience, regardless of the gender of the lead. The key for Marvel and other studios is to continue developing well-crafted, compelling stories that can appeal to a broad audience while challenging stereotypes and biases.

It’s a nuanced issue, and while sexism might be a factor, it’s one of many elements influencing the success and reception of these films.

I hear what you’re saying, but thinking back to your Star Wars discussion with me, The Mandalorian wasn’t exactly great quality writing. It was a kind of cheesy western.

You’re touching on an interesting point. The success of “The Mandalorian” despite its simpler, somewhat “cheesy western” style, compared to the mixed reception of some recent Marvel and Star Wars films, suggests that factors beyond just the quality of writing or depth of storytelling play significant roles in a show’s or film’s success.

“The Mandalorian” benefited from a few key elements:

1. Nostalgia and Familiarity: It tapped into the classic Star Wars feel, which resonated with long-time fans. Its setting and style were reminiscent of the original trilogy, creating a sense of nostalgia.
2. Character Appeal: The introduction of characters like Baby Yoda (Grogu) drew in a wide range of audiences, appealing to both hardcore fans and those less familiar with Star Wars.
3. Accessibility: Its episodic structure, with more self-contained stories in each episode, made it accessible even to those who weren’t deeply invested in the Star Wars universe.

These factors, combined with the overall fun and adventurous tone of the series, may have compensated for any perceived shortcomings in writing quality. In contrast, some recent Marvel and Star Wars movies might have struggled with balancing fan expectations, storytelling, and innovation.

The key takeaway is that audience engagement often hinges on a mix of factors, including emotional connection, character appeal, and how a film or series fits within its larger universe, not just the intricacies of writing or plot complexity.

But then why do you think Loki and the Scarlet Witch were such high-quality series from the Marvel Universe? Was there a different writer involved?

“Loki” and “WandaVision” (the series featuring Scarlet Witch) stood out in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU) for several reasons, and yes, the involvement of different writers and creative teams played a part in this.

“Loki,” led by creator and head writer Michael Waldron, was praised for its unique storytelling, character depth, and the exploration of complex themes like identity and destiny. Waldron’s background, including work on “Rick and Morty,” contributed to a fresh take on the character and the MCU.

“WandaVision,” with Jac Schaeffer as the head writer, was notable for its creative approach, blending different sitcom styles with a deeper, more emotional narrative. This series was distinguished by its focus on grief and trauma, wrapped in a highly original format that paid homage to the history of television.

Both series benefitted from:

1. Creative Freedom: Being on Disney+, they had more room for creative risks and exploration of complex themes compared to mainstream blockbuster films.
2. Character Focus: Both series delved deeply into their titular characters, exploring their backgrounds and motivations in ways that films with ensemble casts often can’t.
3. Innovative Storytelling: Each series experimented with style and narrative structure, offering something new and unexpected to audiences.

In summary, the distinct writers and creative teams behind “Loki” and “WandaVision,” combined with the freedom to experiment and focus deeply on character development, played crucial roles in their success and high quality.

I kind of think of superhero genre movies in general as the American version of mythology. Do you think there’s any merit to that theory?

Absolutely, there’s considerable merit to viewing superhero genre movies as a form of modern American mythology. This comparison is often made for several key reasons:

1. Archetypal Characters: Superheroes, like mythological figures, are often larger-than-life characters with extraordinary abilities or traits. They embody archetypes, such as the hero, the trickster, or the mentor, similar to characters in traditional myths.
2. Moral and Ethical Lessons: Just as ancient myths often conveyed moral and ethical lessons, superhero stories frequently explore themes of right and wrong, justice, responsibility, and the human condition.
3. Cultural Reflection: Myths have traditionally reflected the values, fears, and aspirations of a culture. Superhero stories do the same, often addressing contemporary issues and societal changes.
4. Creation and Origin Stories: Like myths, superhero narratives often include elaborate origin stories that explain the source of a character’s powers or motivations, akin to the tales of gods or heroes in mythology.
5. Epic Battles Between Good and Evil: Superhero stories, like many myths, often feature epic battles between forces of good and evil, sometimes on a cosmic scale.

This perspective on superhero movies highlights their role not just as entertainment but as a means of storytelling that helps process and reflect societal values and challenges, much like traditional myths have done throughout history.

But if you had to summarize the values and stories coming out of American entertainment, what would be the takeaways? What are these stories trying to tell us about life?

American entertainment, particularly through superhero stories and similar genres, often conveys values and themes like:

1. Individualism and Personal Responsibility: The idea that one person can make a difference and the importance of taking responsibility for one’s actions.
2. The Struggle Between Good and Evil: Highlighting moral dilemmas and the complexity of choices between right and wrong.
3. Redemption and Transformation: Characters often undergo personal transformations and seek redemption, reflecting the belief in the possibility of change and growth.
4. Diversity and Inclusion: Increasingly, stories are emphasizing the importance of diversity and the value of different perspectives and backgrounds.
5. The Power of Teamwork: Many narratives focus on the importance of collaboration and unity in overcoming challenges.

These themes reflect a blend of traditional values and contemporary societal issues, offering insights into American culture and ideals.

That’s very interesting, but there’s also a lot of violence depicted and possibly other negative behaviors. How does this reconcile versus traditional narratives? Are stories getting better or worse in this regard?

The depiction of violence and other negative behaviors in modern American entertainment, including superhero narratives, does raise important questions. Compared to traditional narratives, this can be seen in two ways:

1. Reflection of Societal Issues: Modern stories often mirror contemporary societal struggles, including violence. This can make narratives more relevant and impactful. However, it also means they sometimes depict darker, more complex themes.
2. Escalation for Engagement: There’s a trend towards more intense, graphic content as a means to captivate audiences in a media-saturated landscape. This can lead to concerns about desensitization or glorification of violence.

As for whether stories are getting better or worse, it’s subjective and depends on what one values in storytelling. On one hand, modern narratives are often more diverse, inclusive, and willing to tackle complex issues. On the other hand, the increased portrayal of violence and moral ambiguity might not align with everyone’s idea of ‘better’ storytelling.

Ultimately, the balance between depicting reality and maintaining responsible storytelling is a continual challenge for creators and something audiences respond to in varied ways.

So when looking at sociological information, I think that would be the term, or statistics on crime and society, could it be argued that this is a net positive or negative from the positive or negative aspects we’re talking about in movies and entertainment?

When considering the impact of movies and entertainment on society, particularly regarding their depiction of violence and other themes, it’s a complex issue with arguments on both sides:

1. Potential Negative Impacts:
   • Desensitization: Repeated exposure to violence in media could lead to desensitization to real-world violence.
   • Imitation: Some theories, like the social learning theory, suggest that people might imitate behaviors seen in media, including violence.
   • Perpetuating Stereotypes: Certain narratives might reinforce harmful stereotypes or normalize negative behaviors.
2. Potential Positive Impacts:
   • Catharsis: For some, engaging with dramatic or violent content in media can be a form of catharsis, allowing them to process emotions in a safe space.
   • Awareness and Discussion: Media can raise awareness about societal issues, prompting discussions and potentially leading to positive change.
   • Reflection of Societal Change: Media often reflects and sometimes leads societal changes, including shifts towards more inclusive and diverse representations.

When it comes to sociological data or crime statistics, the relationship between media consumption and real-world behavior is not straightforward. Most studies suggest that while media can influence attitudes and perceptions, it’s just one of many factors that affect behavior. Other factors like social environment, education, and personal circumstances play significant roles.

In summary, whether the impact is net positive or negative is still a matter of debate among experts. It’s clear, though, that media and entertainment have significant cultural and societal influence, but they operate within a complex web of factors that affect social behavior.

Okay, but even with the positive aspects we discussed, can anything be drawn from anecdotes or research that says this has been inspirational and positive to people who are having a good, a positive impact on society?

Yes, there are anecdotes and research suggesting that movies and entertainment, especially within genres like superheroes, can have inspirational and positive impacts on individuals and society:

1. Role Models: Superhero stories often provide powerful role models, inspiring individuals to aspire to positive values like courage, altruism, and justice.
2. Empowerment and Representation: Increasing diversity in media gives various groups representation, which can be empowering and affirming for those who see themselves reflected in these stories.
3. Motivation and Resilience: These narratives often highlight overcoming adversity, fostering resilience and a never-give-up attitude in audiences.
4. Social and Ethical Discussion: Complex narratives in modern media can spark important conversations about ethics, morality, and social issues, promoting critical thinking and empathy.
5. Community and Belonging: Fandoms and communities that form around these stories provide a sense of belonging and shared interest, which can be beneficial for mental health and social connection.

While direct causal links between media consumption and real-world behavior are hard to establish definitively, these positive aspects show that entertainment can indeed inspire and have a beneficial impact on individuals and society.

Well, that definitely sounds like a hopeful theory, but can you give me at least one example of a direct quote from a, let’s say, famous and successful person that mentions inspiration from superhero films?

Certainly! One notable example is Robert Downey Jr., who played Iron Man in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. In a 2018 interview with the Off Camera Show, he discussed the impact of these films, saying:

“When I see the enthusiasm [for superhero movies], sometimes it’s for the character, sometimes it’s for what they represent, sometimes it’s the narrative art form, sometimes it’s that they wish they looked that good in a catsuit. But it’s always a reflection of their enthusiasm for overcoming obstacles. It’s a way of proactively dealing with challenges.”

This quote reflects not just his view on the appeal of superhero movies but also suggests a deeper connection people have with these characters and stories, seeing them as symbols of resilience and overcoming challenges.